The mess in the middle
Sep. 11th, 2005 06:42 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ksmithYou'd think that after spending a large chunk of the day working over the book that I'd have at least finished one damned scene. But it's a Jani-John scene and things need to be stated just so. I've rewritten some of this dialogue 4-5 times over the past week. Fingers crossed that I finally have it, at least to the point that I can move on to the Jani-Lucien scene that follows, the wonder of which will be that Lucien agrees with something John said.
Allergies still giving me hell. What a pain.
UPDATE: and I have finally finished the frappin' scene. A shade over 14 pages long, with about 4 added today...give or take all the stuff I cut/trimmed/erased/trashed. Not completely happy with it, but it will serve for now.
I feel uncomfortable about the length of this scene--it's almost an entire chapter in and of itself.
Survey question for writers--about how long would you say your average scene is? # of words or pages--either is fine.
Another question--how many pages do your chapters usually run?
Way back when I was first working on CODE, back when it was still GLASS GREEN, a first reader commented that my scenes were too long. At the time, they were running into double-digits, pagewise, and I worked to shorten them. Now I start to feel edgy if I have scenes that run more than 10 pages. Unfortunately, this book is making me edgier than hell.
FYI, I consider a scene any stretch of writing where the same characters start and end in the same general space. This current scene begins and ends in the library, with no new characters showing up over the course of the thing to break up matters.
It bothers me.
Allergies still giving me hell. What a pain.
UPDATE: and I have finally finished the frappin' scene. A shade over 14 pages long, with about 4 added today...give or take all the stuff I cut/trimmed/erased/trashed. Not completely happy with it, but it will serve for now.
I feel uncomfortable about the length of this scene--it's almost an entire chapter in and of itself.
Survey question for writers--about how long would you say your average scene is? # of words or pages--either is fine.
Another question--how many pages do your chapters usually run?
Way back when I was first working on CODE, back when it was still GLASS GREEN, a first reader commented that my scenes were too long. At the time, they were running into double-digits, pagewise, and I worked to shorten them. Now I start to feel edgy if I have scenes that run more than 10 pages. Unfortunately, this book is making me edgier than hell.
FYI, I consider a scene any stretch of writing where the same characters start and end in the same general space. This current scene begins and ends in the library, with no new characters showing up over the course of the thing to break up matters.
It bothers me.
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no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 02:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 02:25 am (UTC)I don't think I've ever managed a single sentence. I've used things like excerpts from medical records that were only a couple of sentences long, but I don't think they count.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 02:29 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 02:35 am (UTC)It may go to show that the right (or wrong) comment at a certain point in one's writing career (like, say, the beginning) will tend to stick in one's brain like a traumatic event even as the evidence mounts that the commentator isn't necessarily correct. It was an opinion, and I probably should have taken it as such.
But it came at the wrong time, and imprinted.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 02:44 am (UTC)*passes the ouzo*
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Date: 2005-09-12 02:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 02:49 am (UTC)So, you know, I'm not the person to ask.
Because mm. Licorice. *g*
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 03:01 am (UTC)There used to be this strange candy that I used to like, though. Grey (grey candy--who was the genius?) pillow-like things that melted in your mouth. Like butter mints, but so not. I think they were anise-based. But we're talking mid to late 60s here, the Early Jurassic Candy Strata, with things like wafer flying saucers filled with nonpareils and such.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 03:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 02:59 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 03:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 03:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 03:15 am (UTC)Except for Canadian Club and ginger ale. I like that.
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Date: 2005-09-12 03:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 03:09 am (UTC)But kerosene will make you sicker faster.
Gaaahhhppppppthphhh! I had to go and check. Luckily I have some 126 proof local whiskey to wash the taste out.
Yeah, I keep bottles of nasty stuff around...this one was a ex-roommate leftover post ex-friend gift.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 04:06 pm (UTC)I always flip that name into "Old Potting Shed."
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Date: 2005-09-12 04:39 pm (UTC)It might not be Old Overshoes, but something like that.
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Date: 2005-09-12 02:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 02:37 am (UTC)They're "heavy" scene breaks, though--they come with an in-character timestamp--so they might count as like, chapters-lite.
The current book has chapters running beteween 13-25 pages. The chapters in Whiskey & Water run between 20-40 pages. The chapters in Blood & Iron are slapped in any old place it looks like maybe there should be a chapter, because it didn't have chapters, and my editor asked for them. They're about 20 pp long. (all page counts in standard 250-word Courier pages)
The chapters in One-Eyed Jack run between three pages and fifteen or so, and the ones in Stratford Man are "scenes," and run between a paragraph, and about fifteen pages.
I'm a lot of help, aren't I?
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 02:46 am (UTC)My concern is that I'm overwriting and scenes are dragging as a result. I have to keep telling myself that we're still in the land of First Draft, but it doesn't always help.
My chapters in CODE averaged 13-16 ms pages, but to mangle a line from Linda Ronstadt, that book was so tight it was hemorrhoidal. If I had it to do over, I would not have been so free with the Delete. I think at times I overedited.
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Date: 2005-09-12 02:48 am (UTC)Have you noticed we're fucking crazy? I mean, we know how to do this, right?
Right?
*g*
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Date: 2005-09-12 02:54 am (UTC)You are soo asking the wrong person. I feel I know less and less as time goes on. I convince myself, however, that the actual body of knowledge that I know is out there has grown at the same time, and that while I know less than I ever did as a percentage of what I know I don't know, I do in fact know more overall than I did 10 years ago.
Honest.
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Date: 2005-09-12 03:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 03:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 02:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 03:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 03:03 am (UTC)Another question--how many pages do your chapters usually run?"
Can't they go until done? Is there a rule or guideline?
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Date: 2005-09-12 03:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 03:24 am (UTC)That sounds promising!
Scenes should take as many pages as they take. Whatever sins you may commit[1], having draggy, too long scenes isn't one of them. The usual routine is the reader reads the unfolding excitement (of whatever sort[2]) until they fall out of their chair, at which point you kick them once and move on to the next scene.
Seriously, rules, even your own rules are meant to be broken. Write what feels right or works.[3]
[1] Terrifying your readers into heart palpitations, for example.
[2] Paperwork?
[3] Don't take this wrong, but I'm expecting to read this book huddled under my desk, wrapped in my blankie, with two mugs of hot chocolate in reach, with all the lights on. (Makes you</> edgy!)
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 04:14 pm (UTC)Oh, bless your heart.
[3] Don't take this wrong, but I'm expecting to read this book huddled under my desk, wrapped in my blankie, with two mugs of hot chocolate in reach, with all the lights on. (Makes you edgy!)
I think we're dealing with different flavors of edgy. I know the flavor you're thinking of, and believe I will be providing plenty of such to go with your hot chocolate and Mr. Blankie.
*My* flavor of edgy involves whether the developing structure of the wip is such that it reduces the Robert Edginess Factor to the point that he needs to switch out the hot chocolate for Jolt Cola in order to stay awake. Not an issue with the info itself, but the way it's conveyed. This worries me endlessly.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 04:56 pm (UTC)Oh good! I'll lay in supplies!
switch out the hot chocolate for Jolt Cola in order to stay awake.
Ah. Can't help with that other than to say that you are probably worrying to no point. I am, of course, willing to rate a scene on the Blankie-to-Red-Bull Scale[1], keeping in mind the last time I did that, I lost the author as a friend because I told the truth[2].
[1] Jolt has too much sugar and not enough caffeine. And deleting the text upon completing said evaluation.
[2] Grammar, spelling, plot, characters, continuity. but, as it was Big-Eyed-Kitty-Faerie-Fantasy, it was published anyway (with improved spelling and grammar in the first few chapters(!))
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 06:52 am (UTC)Chapters, too - these days my chapters are usually made up of several scenes, and I break the chapter either because there's a dramatic break point at the end of some scene, or just because the chapter is becoming way too long.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-12 06:24 pm (UTC)This is in a book with multiple POV. In single POV, I've never diagrammed it. I write what Allie tells me to write...