Guess I have to give back the Campbell

[ksmith]

gacked from jaylake. oh dear.

Mary Sue Litmus Test

71 points or more: Irredeemable-Sue. You're going to have to start over, my friend. I know you want to keep writing, but no. Just no.

Jani scored 83.

I found these comments about the test interesting:

Again, keep in mind that the test isn't always correct. Morpheus from the Sandman Comics scored nearly 70 points, and yet we don't believe he's a Mary-Sue. He's well developed, suffers the consequences of several major personality flaws, and has very few powers or talents besides those necessary to perform the duties of his station. Of course, research, an interesting story, and good writing always help too. ;)

We hope this test has been some help to you. If you're looking for suggestions on how to avoid Mary-Sues and create original, developed characters,

Trying to avoid feeling all shirty over the fact that Jani may not be considered original and developed.

Seriously though, I would argue that many qualities of a Mary Sue also could apply to a Hero, or a highly competent individual of the type that some would like to fuck and others would like to kill.

And yes, I like her name. If I really really hadn't, I wouldn't have given it to her.

Comments

[naomikritzer]

I found that test amusing but flawed. It's amusing when it nails the universal traits of the angst-ridden Mary Sues of my adolescent fiction (cast out from the tribe? check. eyes of a color not found in nature? check. even the meanest bully eventually repents when s/he realizes that the heroine is the only one who can save them? that wasn't on there, but it should've been...) But you have to give protagonists the tools they need to protag, and some of the time that means they're going to need to be smarter than average, better at certain things than the people around them, etc., because otherwise they'd die in chapter one.

[torrilin.livejournal.com]

If I take the test as a reader, Jani comes out at around a 60. There are some questions a reader can't really answer, which might skew things a bit.

There's also some problems with it *g*. For example: Jani is basically half idomeni, half human. She has some advantages of both. She's also got some disadvantages of both. She's *also* got some special disadvantages all her own. And well, I don't think the average human in her world would think being half idomeni is the most wonderful thing ever. And most idomeni don't think it's a hot idea either. A classic Mary Sue would get the up sides of both, but none of the downsides that Jani is stuck with. A classic Mary Sue would tend not to have people react to her with the variety that Jani does either.

The languages question also has problems, since any character who has a legitimate reason to be bilingual (most Europeans, French Canadians etc) automatically gets dinged.

[kristine-smith.livejournal.com]

The eyes and angst questions did me in. But, oh well.

But you have to give protagonists the tools they need to protag, and some of the time that means they're going to need to be smarter than average, better at certain things than the people around them, etc., because otherwise they'd die in chapter one.

Very true. The test misses a lot of shading and nuance that separates a Mary Sue from a flawed hero. I narrowed it down to a simple question--would I want that character's life? For all I admire Jani, would like to know someone like her, and wish I possessed a few of her qualities, I wouldn't take her life on a plate. Hence, I don't consider her a Mary Sue.

[kristine-smith.livejournal.com]

yeah, the language question bugged me, too.

I took the test as a Famous Character I Have Read, and came out with a value in the 40s. I would've guessed higher. Like you said, though, not my character, so there are some questions I can't answer.

[torrilin.livejournal.com]

*nod* I think it'd be pretty possible for a reader doing the quiz to come up with a high 80s score legitimately. And that's really key. If a reader reacts to a character as a Mary Sue, there's a problem. If a reader can't really tell, or there's grey, the character is probably ok. Louis Wu in Ringworld is a whole lot Mary Sue-ish, but the book is still a fun story. (Going off memory, he scored 72 on the test... and would've hit higher if the test author had thought to include questions about "unbreakable addictions")

Admittedly, most published books with a case of Mary Sue have a much more complicated character than the classic fanfiction version :).

[barbarienne.livejournal.com]

would I want that character's life?

-->That's the standard I use, too. Mary Sues are wish-fulfillment. And even then they're not always horrible to read about: Harry Potter is a total Stu, but that doesn't diminish the books.

[e-moon60.livejournal.com]

Poppycock. Jani is NOT a Mary Sue. Jani IS original and developed.

I just took the test for one of my protags. Scored very low, but it should've been higher because there are elements of that character which I would like to have that weren't asked about. (Want her life? Hell no.) Another main character in the same book would've scored much higher, but she's not the protag...and she's also not wish-fulfillment for me (far from!) Ditto one of the other main characters.

A true Mary Sue depends on plot stupidity to protect MS, not just on the likeability of MS. Everything's too easy, over and over, for no reason except that Our Girl/Guy must shine. (This includes, in my opinion, the kind of obstacles that any intelligent protag would avoid through the application of standard intelligence and people skills. If the brilliant, brave, tough protag takes a short-cut through a dark alley, there had better be some reason other than "someone told me it was quicker...")

I agree that a hero or other highly competent individual shares some characteristics of the Mary Sue as defined by this test...and that such people are more interesting to read about, and thus add to the success of a book. I am not a fan of "everyincompetent" books.

[kristine-smith.livejournal.com]

(This includes, in my opinion, the kind of obstacles that any intelligent protag would avoid through the application of standard intelligence and people skills. If the brilliant, brave, tough protag takes a short-cut through a dark alley, there had better be some reason other than "someone told me it was quicker...")

That's plain ol' poorly thought out fiction. It's everywhere. Books. Movies, especially. Horror. You can always count on one character to go into the basement alone despite all the warnings.

The Mary Sue phenomenon seems specific to SF/F, at least as far as I've read. Do mystery/romance/other genre readers ever refer to it? Was the protag in Da Vinci Code a Mary Sue? Was Sherlock Holmes? Watson? Eliza Bennett?

[e-moon60.livejournal.com]

In my view, the Mary Sue phenomenon is specific to juvenile fiction...when I was a child and adolescent I wrote Mary Sue-ish horse stories, dog stories, mysteries (inasmuch as I could write a mystery...), spy stories, war stories. For that matter, a lot of juvie books, in my day and time, were clearly designed to appeal to Mary-Sue-ish readers (and it was worse in some late Victorian children's stories..."school" stories, for instance.)

You could certainly see the Black Stallion and Island Stallion books as pure wish-fulfillment...and all those sports stories in which the despised different one pulls victory out in the final game, or the kid saves the train from going over the rickety bridge, or the kids solve a crime no one else can solve, and so on and so on. Whether written by "real" writers or those consortia working under an assumed name, these books are designed to be feel-good wish-fulfillment for kids. The wild stallion who won't tolerate adults can be tamed by the child...the dangerous dog/wolf/lion becomes the child's confidante...when grownups quail, the brave child keeps going...and if the child is hurt doing something noble or brave, there's someone to comfort her/him and admire her/him. Not all children's books were like this, of course, but books like this were immensely popular. I enjoyed some of them myself. So kids who read that kind of story naturally wrote that kind of story.

There's also a lot of Mary Sue-ishness in some TV programs (certainly not all.) Not just kids' programs of the old days like Fury (kid and horse can solve things grownups can't) and Sky-King and Lassie, but those shows in which a small tight group of friends solve crimes or do things others can't do, and stick up for each other.

SF/F and romance (because boy, is there ever Mary-Sueness in romance!) fandom may be the only place where a lot of juvenile fiction is shared and seen...and where juvie fiction grades into adult fiction without a big jump. From Encyclopedia Brown or even the old Nancy Drew to, say, any "adult" mystery series (even Agatha Christie, but certainly Sayers, Tey, Allingham, of the old school to any of the current mystery writers, there's a HUGE leap. The plot is critically important in mysteries and thrillers...you can have--should have--good characterization, but you MUST have a plot that hangs together, even for low-level stuff. Mysteries demand some adult-level thinking if you have adult detectives. But in romance, fantasy, and some areas of SF, you have a slope, not a leap, from juvie to the seriously adult stuff. (And by adult, for anyone in doubt, I don't mean "with lots of sex." I mean adult concerns, adult-level thinking and interpersonal skills, adult sensibilities.)